7799 Words by Erle Montaigue (master Degree China) July 3, 1989
The following article was published in several International Magazines. However, only one printed the whole article, Australasian Fighting Arts Magazine. So here for the first time, the article many tried to have banned!
A fight starts in the same way that it has done for thousands of years, with a fist shaking in the face, a pointing finger or a grab of your shirt etc. In this way it is easy to use one of the techniques from a classical kata, the target is stationery and not expecting attack and so the wristlocks will work. This is what George Dillman says to begin his seminar. However and here's the rub. A fight does not start until the first blow has been struck. Until then it is within the power of the passive party to not follow his ego and simply walk away. If he cannot walk away, then is the time to start a fight! Most street fights that are real fights, i.e.; not just the young buck wanting to try himself out against you but rather someone wanting to actually hurt you, start from the beginning with a serious attack and then you cannot use one of the slower techniques from the kata, you must act and act quickly. (Cranston Snord 1877)
I will begin by saying that contrary to what George Dillman says, what he does is very dangerous and could cause either stroke or the carotid artery walls disintegrating. I have spoken to many people in the know about nerves and neurology and the answers are always the same. Don't let him do it to you!
What the book called 'Martial Arts, Traditions History And People has to say about George Dillman:
They say that George Dillman began his karate training in 1960 under Robert Tieu an Okinawan Kempo stylist in Fort Knox, KY. He received his black belt in this style from Charles Cant. The book says that he has studied Issinryu with Harry Smith and Shorin-ryu with James Coffman with his Chinese systems coming form Daniel Pai. In 1973 George Dillman was named as one the country's top kata competitors by 'Official Karate Magazine'.
The first thing that George Dillman said to me (and he did recognize me) was that I had written an article in which I had said that classical kata and forms were useless for fighting, if they were taught exactly as they were interpreted. George thinks that that is wrong and went about to show me by way of his Sydney workshop that I was wrong and in a joking way wanted a retraction in the magazine. Well, he's not getting that retraction as I still hold my initial belief that kata; form or Taiji form do not work if they are taken exactly as they look. What I originally meant was that I had never seen anyone go about teaching kata in the correct way, i.e.; explaining the inner meaning of the form, for instance; I have always said that the silly upper block was just that, because it exposed the smaller bone in the forearm and was likely to be broken if used for an upper block full force on force etc. George allows us to believe that this block is always taught in this way even by the most senior karateka saying that the Japanese were really cut with the Americans for the war and so they just taught them rubbish. Well, I spoke to Paul Starling, one our country's leading karateka and indeed throughout the world and his explanation to the old 'upper block' is slightly different to what George tells us that everyone says that it is. Paul tells me that very beginning students are only taught the upper block as an actual block to gain co-ordination and for the exercise, something that George Dillman also tells us in his seminar that he also teaches to beginners. But at an advanced stage Paul Starling would never use this block as a force on force block and even if it had to be used as a block is only ever used on the move and to the side so that the under part of the arm is actually sliding along the oncoming force diverting it rather than taking it full on. Goju, Paul says is more like the Chinese styles at an advanced stage preferring to use more circular hand techniques rather than the clenched fist variety. He also told me that every movement from the kata is taught as at least three different bunkai with each block being able to be just that or as a pressure point or as a break from a hold and into a lock etc. So I don't think that it's quite fair to say that only George Dillman has the good oil so to speak. So in that sense, yes I still make the statement that if kata and form are taught as the actual fighting techniques for what they look like i.e.; an upper movement of the forearm as an upper block, then it is no good for actual fighting. And even some of the techniques that were demonstrated, for instance the wrist locks etc. they just don't work in the street against a good street fighter, I have had first hand experience of this, while you're getting the lock on, what is he doing! And many of the kata techniques relied upon locks or rather pressure point locks but you have to get it on first! And no one leaves his or her hand there for you to grab.
The area of kata definition however is George Dillman's biggest draw card, not his knocking people out left right and centre,..literally! And I'm sure that some of the other writers will only really push that side of the workshop missing his main area that of kata definition. If his workshops were only kata definition then I would have no hesitation in recommending them but what I saw can only be described as negative.
Now let me tell you that when I say, 'knocking them out', I don't mean that he walks up to people and punches them out, he hits them on the carotid sinus to knock them out! But not before he has struck two other points on the forearm to 'open the neck to the knock out'.
George Dillman is a very strong person despite his lack of height. He is big laterally and packs a pretty hefty punch so it is with mixed feelings that I say that I am still not sure that it is the pressure points that do the work or his immense power. For instance, I allowed him to get a wrist lock in good faith and putting my trust in him not to hurt me in such a vulnerable position whereas normally one would simply not allow anyone to get such a silly lock on, in a real fight situation, or rather as he calls it a pressure point lock on my palm. I held my palm towards him and he grabbed the fingers of my right palm with his left palm, thumb around the back so that he could lever my fingers back easily, he then placed his right forearm across the back of my right wrist to grab his own left wrist to give him even more leverage, then he almost ripped my fingers off causing some deal of great pain and with me having to go down onto one knee to try and alleviate the pain. Now that's my version of it. One word of advice for other seminars George, you don't have to rip someone's fingers off to demonstrate a technique, my fingers are still sore and a little swollen the next day but anyone could have done that given the same situation. I don't think that I would place my total trust in George Dillman again at future seminars fearing the same re-occurrence. Others at the seminar received the same treatment especially the larger more gi'ed up karateka who perhaps presented some sort of threat. I did not present a threat until George Dillman did a pushing demonstration where he said that if someone crossed their hands in front of them it would cause the balance to be lost because of the fact that one side of the brain controls the opposite side of the body etc. I don't think that we were made so inferior. Because of my push hands training I only took a controlled step backwards when he pushed whereas others were pushed quite a long distance, this is when George Dillman came back to me for the next demo of the wrist breaker! I guess he thought that I was only a humble reporter until then, I am still a humble reporter only now I have a swollen hand! His talk at the beginning of the seminar was something like, there is no testing here, no competition, I'm too old for that etc, but in looking at George Dillman's body language and eyes I think that there is still a little bit of competition in the old bull yet. And he's not really old just pushing fifty and in martial arts terms should be at his peak right now. I think that if there were any more volatile people there, there could have been some nasty things happening and indeed I saw one person in particular who was just about jack of having his fingers ripped off and was almost to his hitting back point.
George Dillman's version is that he actually took a pressure point on my wrist to cause my palm to open so that he could easily bend my fingers back. Upon taking my advanced class I tried it out with some of my advanced students and I could easily bend their fingers back and have them on the ground with them trying with all their might to resist and this was without the wrist pressure points. Now had he been a wimp then I might have second thoughts about my second thoughts but he isn't and he did use great power and leverage to cause such pain, so still I am not sure as to the veracity of that particular point. Perhaps the reason that the 'setup' points on the wrist work is because the wrist and inner forearm have many real dim-mak acupuncture points allocated there and when struck even lightly will cause a rush of energy to go to that area to try and protect or heal the affected part, leaving the 'mind point' on the side of the face or the carotid sinus open to attack. I have been using this method in my combat wrestling and dim-mak methods for years and they do work.
The neck striking is done with a knife edge pushing back into the carotid sinus with a beginning strike and then a sharp push into the artery, a small sinus behind the carotid artery which tells our brain when high or low blood pressure happens and acts accordingly. When struck, this artery (pressure point) tells us or rather fools us that extreme high blood pressure is present and so we faint. Any strike to this area will cause knock out regardless of how it is set up. Now George Dillman has no argument with this idea as his whole thing revolves around fooling the mind into believing that something really bad has happened and so causing us to either faint or causing us to lose out strong grip etc so that a second technique more damaging perhaps can be employed. But George Dillman tells us that the initial two points on the forearm must be struck to set up the neck shot. The first pressure point (1) causes pain the second one causes extreme pain while if the third one is used causes a knock out. There are fourth and fifth but these are apparently too dangerous to use at demos. I have seen others do the old shot to the carotid thus causing black out but they did not use the other two set up shots.
He sure does knock people out however and it doesn't matter how strong they think they are, he has knocked out the best of them and is the first to say that it doesn't matter how good someone is at these techniques, one must also know how to fight in order to use them. George Dillman says that if he were to get into the ring with Mike Tyson, he would probably be knocked out before he actually got close enough to use one of his techniques. At last! Someone who does not say that he could beat Iron Mike! And he made that point quite clearly, he is not superman, he is not magical he is not mystical, he just uses scientific methods of muscle, nerve and bone control to cause the mind to think that certain things have happened and people do go down very quickly. Those who are standing in front of him allowing him to do it I mean.
Although he does say that he is able to cause knock out with a slight tap and also by striking the forearm alone, I did not see that happen and he refused to demonstrate so I cannot comment on that part, I am only able to comment on what I saw at that demonstration and that was, a big strong guy slicing into the carotid sinus, (ST 9 Point) with a knife edge strike and putting them out. I also saw some good wrist locks which when done on me felt like ordinary wristlocks and nothing more. The other demo was to do with the fingers. I.e.; grabbing them and bending them to inflict great pain. The only thing is that George Dillman says that he could not do it if he didn't have his other finger on a pressure point at the base of the finger being attacked. I think that anyone would go down when the fingers are attacked so still I am not convinced that this was pressure point or brute strength against a weak joint. Grab Hulk Hogan by the finger and bend it backwards and he will yell in pain as well, this was one of Judo gene LeBell's famous holds in the old wrestling days, he used to win matches bending fingers. George Dillman has promised to use more advanced methods at his next seminars. And if he demonstrates the 'slight tap' on the forearm to knock someone out and not a big hit then I will do quite a different article but for now, this is what I saw and I can not do anything else other than what I saw can I. I have had both the ulna and the radius broken at once in one of my arms and I was certainly knocked out by that! But if it is just a light tap then I'll be impressed. (Editor's Note: It is now 1998 and I am still to see anyone KO anyone with a light tap to the arm or anywhere else for that matter! And I mean a LIGHT tap).
The strike that he used on people like Glen Turner was a double slap to the inside of the forearm and then a knife edge drive inward to the soft fore part of the neck. I noticed that the attack was a push inward towards the carotid sinus which left a red mark and swelling around the point for some time afterwards. Even two days later Glen tells me that there is a slight swelling and his neck is still quite sore! He says that the reason that he allowed George Dillman to knock him out the first time was that he was expecting a 'light tap' with the fingers and not a substantial blow to the carotid. The second time was done without telling him first! I have since phoned Glen to tell him to see his doctor if the swelling does not go down as this could indicate something dire. Better to be safe than dead.
George Dillman did demonstrate that if the two points were not activated firstly, the neck strike would not work and went about banging people on the neck with his knife-edge. BUT he did not strike them in exactly the same way as when he knocked them out, it was more of a straight in strike and more to ward the rear of the neck so once again, I do not really know if it was pressure point first and then the neck pressure point or pressure point only, (carotid sinus) that did the knock out. He also says that he can knock someone out by touching his or her leg on certain 'touch' points. Let me explain; According to George Dillman and he says that medical people can substantiate it, there are touch pressure points, which only react to touch, there are hit points which only react to strikes and there are stretch points which only react to twisting the joint. Now if you do not know the points and strike a touch point then nothing happens and visa-versa but if you know the points and are able to only touch a certain point in conjunction with another more serious point then the effect can be devastating. However, the medical books tell us that there are 'heat sensors, cold sensors, pain sensors and itch, touch sensors' on the skin and that's all, no hit sensors.
There are no blocks in the George Dillman system, but I saw many blocks, well they were actually point strikes which acted as blocks to set up another point strike but George Dillman prefers to call them point strikes or dim-mak points. The strike points were quite effective when used with another point for instance; George Dillman took a wrist and activated that point, he then turned it into a roll over (in wrestling) and struck the point just where the triceps join and the person went straight down but if he touched it he didn't go down! Now, anyone would go down if struck in the triceps in that position and it was not just a tap either you could hear the sound of the strike all over the room and the chap who had it done said that he felt as if a hammer had hit his arm. Now, once again, it was a pretty good shot to the triceps that put the person down. By the same token there were points that he struck and nothing happened but when he touched them, something did happen and scientifically, George Dillman tells us that this is true about the nerves of the human body. But I am not a scientist.
But getting back to basics and keeping in mind that he is very powerful, he would probably be able to use very effective locks and holds, a-la ju jitsu or Aikido without the pressure points. But then what he says is that he can teach and indeed has taught many smaller people to take very large men out with the slap across the carotid.
I must admit, I'm in two minds when I write about George Dillman. His kata work will benefit any martial artist and he is able to work out exactly how any movement from any kata or form works in a more realistic way and then he is able to change it slightly to gain the absolute amount of power for the least possible use of energy. And just that part of the seminar would have impressed me without the knocking out and breaking of fingers etc. But I can not recommend these seminars simply because there were more negatives that positives on the whole. I will stress that there are many great kata/karate teachers in this country and George Dillman is a long way off so lessons will be expensive. Just one thing, when you go to the seminars take really close notice of how the knock out to the carotid is done and make up your own mind about it but don't let him do it to you so hopefully no-one will allow it to happen, I think that this is very irresponsible. OF course if he does 'just tap' you on the forearm and you pass out then that's great and I will be the first one on his list of students and the first in line to have it happen to me but I doubt it.
One main problem with the seminar that I have picked up is that, if a karate person of meager knowledge goes to the seminars, he would come out of it thinking that everything that he/she has learnt was wrong, or rather the bunkai interpretation was wrong and so who is he/she going to go to when George Dillman goes back to the USA! And let's face it, no matter how one puts it when talking about other teachers, if you say that anything is wrong then in the student's mind, everything is wrong and that teacher loses a student and George Dillman has a way of putting just about every other teacher down without actually coming out and saying it. One comes out of the seminar thinking that all karate teachers have simply learnt it all wrong or rather the bunkai part.
George Dillman is an excitable person who gets quite 'high' on his classes, he is very American and talks quite a lot, but a lot of what he has to say makes a lot of logical sense with regard to kata definition. There's nothing wrong with making people think is there, I've been getting into trouble for that for years. One thing for sure, if nothing else, I guarantee that 90 percent of all who attend his seminars will go home and get out that dusty book of anatomy and begin to look up nerves and bones etc. I am. And, George, if I find any inconsistencies, I'll tell you about them.
...I have! read on.
The following is an interview that I had with George Dillman.
Erle/. What you do, is that something that everyone can, or should know or is it just that nowadays people are just too lazy to really look into their katas and work out what they really mean preferring to stick with stronger attacks to areas they know will work if not as much focus has to me used.
George Dillman/. Actually, what I do and what you're going to see today can be done by a seven year old child, in fact I'm glad you asked that question because I was left notes on the pressure points and how they apply to form and how to manipulate them by a man named Hohan Soken and in my notes it simply says the power that is needed is that which a seven year old child can do. It is proper angle and direction and manipulation of pressure points that people do not know. Anyone can do this. When I first read the notes and I was studying and getting involved in this I lined up our children's class and I had them stand up by year and I paid real close attention to how hard a seven year old child could punch. And I realized that a 7 year old child could punch decently hard but that's only the power that's needed and one of the problems that I had with pressure points when I first got into it was, I was from the old school and I would slam him as hard as you can and hit him with full power and I realized that that didn't work, I got out into tournaments and just to test my full power I went in and drilled him all I had really just to see what would happen and we went back and the judges went, ' that's one point!' I took the point but in my mind was that these techniques can't work, that was all I had, I had given him my best shot, I unloaded my lunch on that guy and they just said, ' that's one point'. One of the pictures in a American karate magazine which is out right now on the news stands (1-7-89) shows a ten year old child, I worked with this child for two and a half hours on the proper angle and direction only on one technique and I went into a seminar cold turkey got a 225 lb truck driver and that 10 year old put him onto his knees in pain, screaming and yelling. And that's in the magazine and you'll see that that's real pain in his face.
Erle/. What point was that.
George Dillman/. I'm going to show those today in the seminar but it's basically wrist points, I use the wrist, the centre of the arm, the upper arm. I teach and use all the points of the body.
Erle/. These points are not magical mystical wonderful points are they, they're all scientifically and medically proven nerve points aren't they.
George Dillman/. Yes, today in my seminar I will give you the medical terminology, I can discuss it with you neurologically from the nerve side or I can discuss it with you acupuncture wise with the meridian flow. I'll discuss what makes a pressure point a pressure point and they're something anyone can do but the biggest thing, one of the things that we haven't found them by accident is the none of the pressure points are activated straight in. that's why fighters don't find them, boxers don't find them. I can stand here all day long and punch you like this, (straight in) and I'm not going to hot a pressure point, it is the oddest moves in a form that give you the angle and direction needed to hurt someone. It is the stance alone, the movement to that angle and the hand movement and manipulation on the movement to that angle. It is some of the weirdest moves that are actually the most deadly.
Erle/. Anyone can hit someone on the head with a hammer and knock them out. You use your hands to do the same. So what's the difference.
George Dillman/. My angle of direction and mine is done with less power, not maximum power, I can almost just touch somebody and have them pass out, I have several techniques, and you people don't know me (meaning some of the early starters for the seminar also listening in on my interview) I have several techniques that I don't show in the seminar that are actually so simple and so easy to do I teach them as we go along to higher ups but if I taught them in the seminar everybody could walk out and copy them and injure people. That's how dangerous these techniques are. I teach them to anyone who comes to my seminars who I deem to be serious in the martial arts. I'm looking for some more people like me out there that are really dedicated and devoted to the martial arts to keep this alive.
Erle/. Your main style is Kempo isn't it.
George Dillman/. Ryukyu Kempo which is an Okinawan style, I studied Ishin-ryu, Shorin-ryu, I studied some Japanese karate and some Chinese karate.
Erle/. What sort of research have you had to do prior to beginning your unique knock out methods. Who told you or did you work it all out scientifically yourself.
George Dillman/. Well it came from Hohan Soken who gave me the inside knowledge.
Erle/. What sort of karate did he teach.
George Dillman/. Well it was a sort of Shorin ryu but it was a regular Okinawan style same as anybody else. All the karate styles in Okinawa are almost the same. They have a little different stance or style and that only comes from different students going away and starting their own styles etc. the same that we have in my country or your country.
Erle/. Tom Slaven also held the world record for smashing ice with his elbow. He began in Kempo also. IS this a part of the Kempo art? Or is it just that the elbow in general in Kempo rates high in importance.
George Dillman/. Yes, it is an integral part of the art but that was before I got into pressure points, I haven't been doing the smashing and the breaking since cause there's no need for it. A lot of what they had Americans doing, punching walls breaking bricks push ups on the knuckles was just to get them to do it to keep them away from what was the real secret.
Erle./. You can get some serious damage yourself as well with heavy breaks.
George Dillman/. Well, I wouldn't do it today because I haven't been conditioning that elbow. I would condition that elbow several times a week and when I was ready to break the ice I could take a couple a cement blocks and smash them, that's when I knew I was ready. We had several other people in my country try to duplicate that feat and they dislocated their shoulder broke arms in 2 or 3 places and the secret was that I conditioned, they didn't. I prepared months ahead the same way that a fighter prepares for a fight. I'm the only one in the USA or in the world in fact who is recorded in Ripley's believe it or not museum. I am the only one in their book and in the museum and no-one else has been able to do that because no-one else has allowed someone like that to weigh the ice for them, they all break ice and say it's all kinds of amounts. When I went to the museum the stipulation was that they ordered the ice, they set it up, I didn't even see it before I walked in to do the break. They wanted to prove there was no fix, there was not pre-chopping it in half. We had one man in the US who would break his ice and then re-freeze it but it's weaker or they put drill holes through it where you can't see it all kinds of stuff. No one has done that for Guinness or Ripleys.
Erle/. Many people have seen and studied the Japanese striking charts to deliver lethal and knock out blows and many Chinese arts have some knowledge of acupuncture striking points, but you have taken it to a practical end in that you actually do it. Is this why you can do it, because you have done it?
George Dillman/. Well because I've done it I've had hands on experience and if you talk to any of the old timers that I have worked with in my country like professor Wally Jay or Remy Pressas, they will tell you that the secret that I have is research. I have been researching since 1972 this deeper and deeper, my research goes in to the University of Virginia Medical School. We have researched with doctors, with nerve specialists, bone specialists and muscle specialists. Everything I do I can prove and they can explain how it happens. I've put people out with doctors monitoring the blood pressure, the pulse rate their head rate and we bring them back so I know exactly what happens to the human body. One of the doctors is writing a study paper for all other doctors based upon my thing with pressure points, they didn't know that that happened to the human body so that's one of the advantages I have. My wife and I have dissected cadavers several times. I have the second in charge of the surgeons in the State of Virginia wants to come down and experience the knock out himself and he wants to write medical papers on this. So we have done our research onto what makes a pressure point a pressure point. Where they cross, where they come straight up to the surface and where then join like a 'V' that's a pressure point.
Erle/. How accurate does one have to be.
George Dillman/. I can place a coin slightly smaller than your 20c coin onto the points and anywhere on that point will do although the points can be very small depending upon how large the person is. If it's a small person the point may only be the size of a pen nib slightly larger and the point might be the size of the thing that you push the nib out with and a very large person will have points the size of the tip of the small finger. The larger the person the easier it is to use pressure points so in a way the larger person is actually weaker than the smaller person where pressure points are concerned. You have a large man pumping irons to build up huge muscles but he can't increase the size of the nerve and so the nerve gets stretched and is even easier to attack and hurt.
Erle/. When a boxer gets knocked out he usually loses a few billion brain cells what's the difference to the way that you do it. Is it just as dangerous?
George Dillman/. No there is no danger. Mine is electrical. What I do is technically not a knock out, I put them to sleep. We've done tests on that. Willy Lim from NZ has travelled to the US to one of my advanced seminars and you ask Wally Jay, Remy Presas or Willy Lim and they'll tell you that I put a man out and he started to snore.
Erle/. How was that done, a strike or a touch?
George Dillman/. It's not just a strike, it's got to be in a given order, it's a chain reaction of a few touches or strikes.
Erle/. There is a sinus just over the carotid artery called the carotid sinus which measures the amount of high or low blood pressure and causes the body to act accordingly. When struck, this sinus tells the mind that extreme high blood pressure has occurred and causes knock out. Is this what you do when striking to the side of the neck?
George Dillman/. No, I've put a man down just touching him on the arm alone. They told me when I was doing sanchen kata like this ( a finger strike with both palms) they told me I was going in ripping out ribs and they told me I was going in ripping out stomachs, hearts but it's touching pressure points, the name sanchen means three points referring to three pressure points because of the round of the ribs being this way and the round of the hand being opposite when you spear hand somebody in that kata it's only humanly possible for you to get to three pressure points. Every move in that kata is aimed at three pressure points which puts a person out. One pressure point causes pain, two causes pain to meet in the middle of where the two pressure points are, if I do this and I do that (2 different points) it travels to the centre and where they meet is where you will feel the pain. I was once grabbed on the wrist and struck in the shoulder and my elbow felt like it had been broken for about 20 minutes afterwards. ( George did this sort of movement to one of the young kick boxers at the seminar and his arm was slightly paralysed for about 20 minutes) Three causes a person to black out. Four pressure pints stop a major organ and can kill someone. Five stops a person and there's no bringing him back from that. I do not play with four or five in a seminar because of the chance of injury.
Erle/. How long does it take to teach this stuff to martial artists.
George Dillman/. Martial artists who have been involved in the arts for some time only need about three seminars because they're doing the right moves but with the wrong interpretation.
Erle/. What does one need to train in the techniques.
George Dillman/. The kata will train you exactly as you need to be trained. Everything is hidden in the kata that's all you need. No variations. The kata is the self-defence exactly as in the kata.
Erle/. Yes but not many people know what you know or teach the kata as you teach it.
I did ask one of the people who had been knocked out what he felt and he said that he felt no pain just the waking up with people holding him. This is indicative of the carotid sinus being struck.
I must say in closing that George Dillman has read so many books and has a wealth of information from these books and 'notes'. He has a stack of research material four feet high and things that many would give their eye teeth to get their hands on, old works by masters of karate before 1906 and before the war when George Dillman says things began to change because of the way the Japanese thought about the Americans etc.
I thought that I should do some checking about some of the more technical medical things that were talked about as I am not an authority on these matters. So I asked a friend of mine and contributor to AFA, Chris Madden, one of this country's top acupuncturists and a practicing martial artist and expert on acupuncture points for the martial arts.
E/. Chris, I put it to George Dillman that these knock out techniques were dangerous as every knock out causes damage and you have just heard his answer, what do you think.
Firstly, let me tell you about the knock out to the carotid area. Anyone with any basic physiology would understand that. In the big blood vessels in your neck, special nerve endings called baroreceptor, that means that they sense the pressure of the blood supply. If you give them a good wack your body is mislead into believing that your blood pressure has gone up dangerously high and it shuts everything down for a few seconds producing unconsciousness. But anything that produces unconsciousness is dangerous. If you're unconscious you are much closer to death than you are conscious so any technique that produces unconsciousness whether it's just by wacking someone on the skull or doing something cleaver is dangerous and causes damage.
E/. What about the statement that he is not actually knocking them out but rather putting them to sleep.
C/. I don't think that many parents would use that sort of technique on their children at 7 o'clock at night so that they could have a quiet evening in front of the TV. They're dangerous, unconscious is unconscious, quite a different state to be in than being asleep.
E/. What about the fact that someone started to snore after being put out.
C./ Snoring is not necessarily a sign of being asleep. What it's a sign of is a number of things. You can see people snore after they've passed out from an alcoholic seizure or an epileptic fit (Chris Madden has researched this area in particular to great extent and has a vested interest in this field). Sleep clinics are set up now because snoring is a sign that you're not getting good oxygen supply into your lungs and therefore not a good supply to your brain. There is a condition called 'sleep apnea' when there's not enough oxygen. Snoring is a sign that all of the air passages have gone very slack and you're not getting good air supply for whatever reason. A lot of time heavy smokers or alcoholics get it through brain damage. Snoring is not a sign that someone is asleep.
E./. I thought that the thing about the electrical energy from the nerves travelling in opposite directions and crashing in the middle was a bit strange as I have always thought that the impulses travelled immediately to the brain via the sensory nerves and then the appropriate action was sent out via the motor nerves.
C/. Essentially you have two sets of nerves, sensory and motor. Sensory nerves take information from the limbs to the brain while motor nerves take information back to the limbs again. They are two quite distinct systems but they can sometimes travel in both directions but would not indicate to the brain that the elbow had been broken. You can by pressing a sensory nerve a long way up along it's pathway fool the brain into believing that the pain is coming from further down.
E/. That can be done with acupuncture pressure points can't it just by striking one point we can put the whole arm out.
C/. Oh yea there's a classic point called intestine 11 which is smack in the middle of the shoulder blade which when struck will then. It's a bit like cutting off the fuel line to your car engine, it doesn't matter if you cut it off near the engine or right back at the fuel tank the result is the same. If you inflame a nerve anywhere along its path then no signals are going to be able to get past that little bit.
E./ One last gem.
C/. OK from what you've told me Mr. Dillman is able to render people unconscious with striking points. The obvious thing is that there are some parts of the body that are simply more sensitive to being struck. It's not mysterious information, it's not wonderful information. But the one point that I would strongly emphasize is that if you render someone unconscious whether it's for the purpose of self defence or for demonstration you are injuring the person and you are injuring them seriously and there are always long term effects from being knocked unconscious. It's dangerous stuff and I think in law if you were to learn this sort of skill and someone were to throw a punch at you and you were to render them unconscious rather than just knock them down with a good old shot to the nose or an arm lock etc, I think you would be found guilty of assault if not something more simply because you were not using appropriate force. If you can stop someone simply by twisting their arm behind their back then you are obligated by law, at least in the country to do that. But instead if you choose to knock them unconscious and the possibility is then there for brain damage or death then I would suspect that you would be in a very dicey position. Knocking people unconscious is for life threatening situations and not for the sake of a demonstration!
ONE LAST WORD FROM WALL MISSINGHAM
We have some top karate people in the country who know how to fight. The knocking out part of what George Dillman does has no relevance to the martial arts. Anyone can stand in front of someone and hit them on the head with a baseball bat and that's just the same thing that George Dillman does, a chop to the carotid to a sitting duck is just the same. A little knowledge can be extremely dangerous. It's people like this who one day will kill someone and it will be very bad for all martial artists.
A Very Important Word From Professor McCleod From Sydney University Medical Department.
E./ Professor McCleod, what are the medical implications of a slap to the carotid artery area and is it as safe as George Dillman says it is.
PM Well, the answer is no because you can actually rupture the carotid artery, I don't mean causing external bleeding but you can tear the internal structure of it and get what is known as a dissection of it which can result in a stroke. That's a well-recognized diagnosis on the carotid artery.
E. The artery is struck it is struck in an inward manner towards the backbone.
PM Yes, the trauma can damage the wall of it. So that internally it becomes split and the internal part of the wall can break away and block the blood flow.
E. I have asked one of our top acupuncturists about the carotid sinus and he states that the reason that people get knocked out is that the carotid sinus registers extreme high blood pressure when struck even lightly.
PM That's right when it is struck it registers high blood pressure when there really isn't high blood pressure and then it causes the blood pressure to drop greatly thus causing the person to faint. Normally it controls the blood pressure by increasing the blood pressure when the pressure inside the carotid sinus drops or alternatively when it goes up reducing the blood pressure so this is why they faint.
E./ What are your views on the direction of the flow of impulses, can they travel in both directions at the same time?
PM They can in fact go both ways along a nerve if they're artificially excited but it would all be over in a matter of milliseconds. I don't think that that's a very logical explanation to say that the elbow would think that it was broken. It would not be a very acceptable explanation.
E/. Would this actually be classed as a knock out or just putting them to sleep.
PM No, they would not be asleep, they'd lose consciousness.
E/. What about the idea that someone snored while knocked out indicating that he was actually asleep.
PM You can snore if you are asleep or if you have been knocked out.
E. With regard to the size of the nerve points of different sized people, he says that the points on a small person would be very small the size of a biro head while the size on a medium person would be the size of the biro clicker while the size for a huge person would be the size of the top of the small finger.
PM They are the same range of size in adults regardless of the size of the adult. In children they are smaller but adults have the same size nerve points.
IN the light of what Professor McCleod has said I immediately phoned as many of the people who were struck and told them that if they experienced any swelling or after affects from the strike to immediately go to their doctor as this could indicate that the wall of the carotid had been ruptured and could kill them while they sleep by blocking off the blood supply.
And one last note, now of course we will see hundreds maybe thousands of young martial artists going around wacking their friends in the carotid artery to see if it works. These techniques are dangerous and the responsible martial artist does not show these techniques to anybody, especially within the first few minutes of a seminar not knowing who is there and what they are there for. Not to mention the medical implications of doing these techniques on people who you know nothing about, no medical history not even a simple question, "do you suffer any ailments etc" just wack and down he goes, no questions asked.
Someone pressing a point on your foot, in this case Gall Bladder 42, and causing you to jump two feet? Yes, to some this is impressive but not to anyone who knows anything at all about acupuncture. Try the point called 'liver 3' just between the big and second toe, it's much more painful than GB 42. Anyone with any knowledge about acupuncture is able to press these sore points and this will impress some who aren't in the know.
Slapping someone across the carotid will impress some people, once again only those who aren't very high in rank and or experience will be impressed with the old chop across the carotid to send someone out.
Kata definition: Yes, I was at first impressed until I spoke at length to some of this country's most leading karate exponents. My knowledge of karate is of course limited and this is why I was impressed.
Belting someone on the upper arm on a point called 'Triple Warmer 12'. This is once again a sore point in the body and will indeed cause someone to go down.
AFA has an article on Dim-Mak coming up which explains some of these points.
WHAT THEY GOT OUT OF IT:
Well, not much really. IN retrospect, George Dillman did not actually teach anyone how to do it and now we have the dangerous situation of someone (this happened) going back to his karate teacher and trying to chop him across the carotid with ever increasing power to try and knock him out. Not only dangerous to his teacher but also to him when his teacher gets jack of him hitting him and hits back! George Dillman did not tell the people how to chop inward toward the backbone and if this is done straight in it will hurt at the very least and kill at the very most. At the most, they learnt some different applications about bunkai. But not exactly how to attack the points nor exactly where. I have nightmares about people trying to attack the upper arm with ever more powerful strikes because it did not work as well as when George did it.
MORE ON THE GEORGE DILLMAN SAGA
This time from Professor TORK, professor of anatomy and physiology at the University Of NSW.
E. Professor Tork, what are the implications of being touched or struck in the area of the carotid sinus?
PT. Well, I would not like to be hit in that area carotid or not. H9owever, it depends upon what the person is doing in that area for instance it is used in cardiac medicine to not hit but push the carotid sinus when there is extreme high rates of heart function and in order to reduce that one could apply pressure... but there is always the danger that the patient can black out and that is dangerous, in those cases we would put the patient in the horizontal position until the blood pressure came back to normal again.
E. Being professor of anatomy, you might be able to tell me if there is any difference in size of the nerve endings and pressure points in larger or smaller people, for instance Dillman claims that in a large person, the nerves are the size of the tip of a small finger whereas in a smaller person they are the size of the biro tip.
PT. Oh no that's not true. They are all microscopic, the largest nerve ending that we have are the pacinam corpusels, but that's only one type but I mention them because they are the biggest. They are approximately .2mm to .34 mm in diameter. the others are all smaller, they are all microscopic. They would not vary that much in adults. So I don't think that's true.
One of the things that happened at the seminar was that when Dillman tried one of his techniques out on a smaller person, the point on the top of the foot, that person did not move, GD's explanation, that his nerves were much smaller than the other men and so they were harder to hit!.
George Dillman The End!
What has happened 5 weeks on :
I (Erle Montaigue) have still not been able to play guitar or perform single handed weapons forms due to a suspected broken right ring finger caused by Mr. Dillman when he asked for my hand to demonstrate a point and was given it freely and in trust. He took a wristlock, (allowed by myself in trust) and with great speed and power took my hand with me following to the ground, I believe breaking my third knuckle of my right ring finger.
On Saturday 1-7-89 I attended the George Dillman Pressure Points Seminar at Macquarie University. During the course of the seminar, I had various wrist locks and pressure point manipulations performed on me and was "knocked out" by Mr. Dillman on two occasions, only one of which I volunteered for. The knockouts were done with strikes to the right side of my neck on the first occasion and to the left side of my neck the second time. I was also struck several times on the right side of my neck on the harder muscular area as a means of demonstrating how I could take strikes to the neck without the knockout because the points weren't taken (see text for explanation Author:) or manipulated correctly.
As far as after effects are concerned, the right side of my neck was swollen and puffy several hours after the seminar and did not subside until Monday morning. With the swelling was some bruising, which was painful till about the following Wednesday. The only other effects I experienced was a bruised left triceps muscle, the result of a fairly heavy blow to a pressure point (TW 12, See Text Author:) on the back of my left arm. Also, the inside of my right biceps was bruised after the manipulation of a point which Mr. Dillman told me was on my heart meridian. (H 6 and very dangerous! Author:)
I asked Mr. Ian Waite to ask George Dillman about who was his contact at the University of Virginia as I had phoned the Dean of the Medical School whose Secretary says no one knows George Dillman and as yet we have had no reply.
FROM A PROFESSOR OF NEUROLOGY SYDNEY
(Name upon request, withheld because of ethical reasons)
Kevin: His name is Professor Lance and this country's top neurologist, recommended to me by all of the others.
E. Professor Lance, I have told you what George Dillman does, what are your views on his neck strikes or even touches.
PL Well you can kill people like that. I don't know the man myself but if you press on the carotid sinus it can stop the heart, it can slow the heart and actually stop it. You know the things that kids do sometimes, they breathe in and out many times to wash all of the carbon dioxide out of the air then somebody gives their chest a sudden squeeze and that has the same sort of effect. But there have been fatal cases of that.
E. So that has the same effect of dropping the blood pressure and slowing the heart?
PL Yes, it suddenly drops the blood pressure. Logically any blow any pressure on that sinus will slow the heart and if we're doing it medically to slow the heart for any reason we just do it quite gently and massage the sinus until the pulse rate comes down. if you gave it a hard blow it could stop the heart for a period of time and in a young healthy person the heart would probably start beating again. So if there's any cardiac disorder or anything or even in a healthy young person the heart may not start beating again. I would say that it's a potentially dangerous practice.
E. About the statement that his pressure points are where two nerves either cross or come to the surface or make a 'v'.
PL I'm not quite sure what he means because some nerves do come near the surface, the ulna nerve behind the elbow, the so called funny bone which would be the thickness of a bridge pencil normally, I can't think of any nerve that would be as thick as your little finger. Perhaps the sciatic nerve would approximate the size of a little finger. It runs down the back of the thigh and a chop across this nerve would cause some deal of pain in fact it would immobilize your opponent. I can't think of anywhere where the nerves actually cross. I think that he is making up his own explanations. what he is doing is potentially dangerous and potentially lethal. This is a commando type of technique. The commandos are taught this chop across the neck with the aim of killing someone.
E. What about the 'just touching' the area to cause knock out can that be done and why.
PL Any doctor can do that to the carotid sinus to cause knock out with just a finger touch. I think that he's playing with fire this chap.